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	<title>Comments on: Accursed OS specific errors</title>
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	<link>http://www.trazoi.com/2009/08/11/accursed-os-specific-errors/</link>
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		<title>By: David Shaw</title>
		<link>http://www.trazoi.com/2009/08/11/accursed-os-specific-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-53</link>
		<dc:creator>David Shaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 23:05:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.trazoi.com/?p=111#comment-53</guid>
		<description>I think after Freeplay I&#039;ve come to the same conclusion. I guess I couldn&#039;t really help it. I was trying to rekindle the developer spirit I had back as an undergraduate, but I was a software engineer who specialised in software testing; complex plans and management is what I was trained to do.

Give me a day to collect my thoughts and notes from the event, but I&#039;m leaning towards using the framework I currently have as just a place to rip source code from and going back to a series of weekly prototypes. Although I am going to look at some of those engines like Unity and see what they&#039;re capable of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think after Freeplay I&#8217;ve come to the same conclusion. I guess I couldn&#8217;t really help it. I was trying to rekindle the developer spirit I had back as an undergraduate, but I was a software engineer who specialised in software testing; complex plans and management is what I was trained to do.</p>
<p>Give me a day to collect my thoughts and notes from the event, but I&#8217;m leaning towards using the framework I currently have as just a place to rip source code from and going back to a series of weekly prototypes. Although I am going to look at some of those engines like Unity and see what they&#8217;re capable of.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Russell</title>
		<link>http://www.trazoi.com/2009/08/11/accursed-os-specific-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-52</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 14:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.trazoi.com/?p=111#comment-52</guid>
		<description>Damn. I spy grammar errors in that.

I also forgot to link the talk &quot;Unique Knobs&quot; from the folks at Metanet (http://www.metanetsoftware.com/technique.html) which says a similar thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Damn. I spy grammar errors in that.</p>
<p>I also forgot to link the talk &#8220;Unique Knobs&#8221; from the folks at Metanet (<a href="http://www.metanetsoftware.com/technique.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.metanetsoftware.com/technique.html</a>) which says a similar thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Russell</title>
		<link>http://www.trazoi.com/2009/08/11/accursed-os-specific-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-51</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 14:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.trazoi.com/?p=111#comment-51</guid>
		<description>Language aside - I think your problem may be that you&#039;re trying to make some kind of engine or &quot;framework&quot;.

Take my Dream Build Play entry (&quot;Dark&quot;) as an example. There&#039;s nothing (editor aside) there that even needs unit testing - you&#039;d struggle to find even 20 lines of engine-ish code in there. I basically treat my platform (C#, XNA, Farseer Physics) as a glorified scripting language. Because of this the only things complex enough to need unit-wise testing (shadows, player physics) could be tested visually by using line drawing as one might use Debug.WriteLine or printf. Otherwise my &quot;debugging technique&quot; (as if you only use one?) was to liberally apply Edit and Continue (nice in an IDE and language where it works reliably).

Yes, the code is a little inelegant - but most of it can safely stay that way!

Only now that I&#039;m finished the game am I even considering getting more &quot;engine-like&quot; - taking what I have so far as a prototype of sorts and fixing the narrow areas where plain C# and XNA are limiting. You could just about call it refactoring!

I think that, perhaps, you are being too academic about things. And not so much with the unit-testing (which is fine - albeit a &quot;warning sign&quot;). Game development doesn&#039;t need to be treated like one big monolithic, academic assignment that must be all done correctly and in one attempt (with a healthy dose of &quot;not invented here&quot;).

Just pick a platform that lets you get to the actual meat of making a game and stick to it. Treat game development like an artform rather than an engineering exercise. (And I mean the game-as-art sense, obviously - as much as I love it, code-as-art has an extremely small audience.)

(If you must be cross-platform off the bat, Unity and PyGame spring to mind as potential platforms. I don&#039;t recall what SDL provides, but raw OpenGL is much less than ideal.)

(PS: I say all this because I have been in very similar places myself - you might even recall a particular project of mine, how well it went, and how much time it devoured.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Language aside &#8211; I think your problem may be that you&#8217;re trying to make some kind of engine or &#8220;framework&#8221;.</p>
<p>Take my Dream Build Play entry (&#8220;Dark&#8221;) as an example. There&#8217;s nothing (editor aside) there that even needs unit testing &#8211; you&#8217;d struggle to find even 20 lines of engine-ish code in there. I basically treat my platform (C#, XNA, Farseer Physics) as a glorified scripting language. Because of this the only things complex enough to need unit-wise testing (shadows, player physics) could be tested visually by using line drawing as one might use Debug.WriteLine or printf. Otherwise my &#8220;debugging technique&#8221; (as if you only use one?) was to liberally apply Edit and Continue (nice in an IDE and language where it works reliably).</p>
<p>Yes, the code is a little inelegant &#8211; but most of it can safely stay that way!</p>
<p>Only now that I&#8217;m finished the game am I even considering getting more &#8220;engine-like&#8221; &#8211; taking what I have so far as a prototype of sorts and fixing the narrow areas where plain C# and XNA are limiting. You could just about call it refactoring!</p>
<p>I think that, perhaps, you are being too academic about things. And not so much with the unit-testing (which is fine &#8211; albeit a &#8220;warning sign&#8221;). Game development doesn&#8217;t need to be treated like one big monolithic, academic assignment that must be all done correctly and in one attempt (with a healthy dose of &#8220;not invented here&#8221;).</p>
<p>Just pick a platform that lets you get to the actual meat of making a game and stick to it. Treat game development like an artform rather than an engineering exercise. (And I mean the game-as-art sense, obviously &#8211; as much as I love it, code-as-art has an extremely small audience.)</p>
<p>(If you must be cross-platform off the bat, Unity and PyGame spring to mind as potential platforms. I don&#8217;t recall what SDL provides, but raw OpenGL is much less than ideal.)</p>
<p>(PS: I say all this because I have been in very similar places myself &#8211; you might even recall a particular project of mine, how well it went, and how much time it devoured.)</p>
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		<title>By: David Shaw</title>
		<link>http://www.trazoi.com/2009/08/11/accursed-os-specific-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-50</link>
		<dc:creator>David Shaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 21:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.trazoi.com/?p=111#comment-50</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve never used a scripting language in my games before, so this is meant to be an experiment to see what it&#039;s like. I&#039;m hoping after an initial learning curve for a productivity boost, but if it turns out to be too messy then it&#039;s probably time to ditch the approach and move to Python or C#.

I&#039;m also starting to think the pure C approach might not be that great an idea, and moving to what is a version of C++ that is essentially C with namespaces and STL containers might be wiser. I&#039;ll see. Part of my trouble is that I haven&#039;t touched any application above an academic prototype size for a while, so I&#039;m remembering the best way to approach things (unit tests, debugging techniques, etc.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve never used a scripting language in my games before, so this is meant to be an experiment to see what it&#8217;s like. I&#8217;m hoping after an initial learning curve for a productivity boost, but if it turns out to be too messy then it&#8217;s probably time to ditch the approach and move to Python or C#.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also starting to think the pure C approach might not be that great an idea, and moving to what is a version of C++ that is essentially C with namespaces and STL containers might be wiser. I&#8217;ll see. Part of my trouble is that I haven&#8217;t touched any application above an academic prototype size for a while, so I&#8217;m remembering the best way to approach things (unit tests, debugging techniques, etc.)</p>
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		<title>By: brian.ripoff</title>
		<link>http://www.trazoi.com/2009/08/11/accursed-os-specific-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>brian.ripoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 14:47:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.trazoi.com/?p=111#comment-49</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d never move back to raw C. I could live with C with C++&#039;s standard library, plus RAII wrappers for external resources. But not raw C.

Also, I find that it can be a lot of work using a scripting language for large amounts of code. Even though scripting languages can be very concise, the number of runtime errors can be a productivity drain. I was trying to write a system with mostly Lua for the code and a little C++ to wrap graphics, input etc but I found it was almost as much work than writing the majority in C++ and wrapping game play. I think there is a nice middle ground, but its hard to find...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d never move back to raw C. I could live with C with C++&#8217;s standard library, plus RAII wrappers for external resources. But not raw C.</p>
<p>Also, I find that it can be a lot of work using a scripting language for large amounts of code. Even though scripting languages can be very concise, the number of runtime errors can be a productivity drain. I was trying to write a system with mostly Lua for the code and a little C++ to wrap graphics, input etc but I found it was almost as much work than writing the majority in C++ and wrapping game play. I think there is a nice middle ground, but its hard to find&#8230;</p>
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